@RobertLeeRE - Shalom Robert,

Absolutely we believe that Rebbe Y'shua is a son of God as he taught. But what does that mean? In the Greek it means the same as in English. God is his Father. In no sense does the term mean that he was God in the flesh (an idea rejected by Torah). One can not be ones own father and he never claimed to be. He was an obedient son and a great tzadik (righteous person) and our elder brother (Hebrews 2:11).

Biblically a son of God is one who obeys the Father. Rebbe Y'shua always obeyed HaShem, his Father, in all things.

The term Messiah means anointed. Rebbe Y'shua is an absolutely anointed servant of God.
HA Moshiach -- THE Messiah must accomplish very specific deeds. Most of these were not fulfilled by Rebbe Y'shua (nor anyone else thus far). Therefore we would have to say that OBJECTIVELY Messiah has not yet come. However we have faith that Rebbe Y'shua is the one appointed by HaShem to fulfill the requirements and to reign as Melekh (King) of Israel in the future. So by faith we say he is Messiah even though the requirements are not yet met.

This distinction generally seems pointless to most Christians but to Jews (and the prophets) it is vital. Messiah will restore Israel, bring all Jews home, rule from the Third Temple, establish global peace and forth. However shortly (about 40 years) after the death of Rebbe Y'shua on the stake the Temple was destroyed and the Jews were exiled from their Land. The key Messianic requirements clearly have not been met yet.

@Lewis1122 - Hi Lewis.

# 3 Good point But ours is but a dim reflection, not worthy of compared to Him.

# 5 There is a difference between praying to someone and talking to them. The Hebrew idea of prayer concerns the worshipful, submission to the one prayed to. Jews do not pray to anyone but HaShem (its considered a serious sin). While one can speak with ones rabbi one would not do so once the rabbi is no longer physically present. Our teaching is that we do not talk with Rebbe Y'shua. I discuss this a bit more in my post on clarifying our doctrines. I'll post that when I finish this reply.

# 6,7 Yes, Moshe is the chief teacher of biblical religion. Every other teacher, including Rebbe Y'shua, is expounding on Torah. Many Christians use the words of Rebbe Y'shua to condemn the Jews and others. That does not alter his teaching. People misuse things all the time.
Rebbe Y'shua is a great Torah teacher. He said not so much as a yod would be taken from Torah. His reformed Torah views (which sought to return the spirituality that existed prior to the Babylonian captivity) is what the Rabbinim took issue with, his teaching that what is permitted to do on Shabbat is acts of goodness. Torah is the heart of biblical religion and it was revealed through Moshe.

#9 Righteousness is performed through the Law every day. There are thousands of tzadikim (righteous people). Rebbe Y'shua's issues with the rabbinim of his day was that they had developed the belief that if one observed the 613 Laws outwardly they were doing enough. HaShem said that outward obedience without inward intention is not enough. We find this teaching throughout the Tanach and the teachings of Rebbe Y'shua and Rav Paul, James and others.  

Without emunah (faith) it is not possible to please HaShem. The Breslov rabbinim like Rebbe Nachman as well as Chabad and other groups are real big on this point. Unfortunately many others still don't get this. Rav James scolds the first century talmidim:

James 2:17  Even so, if it does not have works, faith is dead, being by itself.
2:18  But someone will say, You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith from my works [i.e. Torah observance].
2:19  You believe that there is one God, you do well; even the demons believe and tremble.
2:20  But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Rebbe Y'shua taught to observe Torah but to do with it emunah and shun hypocrisy and show bottle spirituality.

# 12 The Messianic prophecies were given for a reason. The chief among these being the restoration of Israel and the worship of God, and the establishment of global righteousness. Until these conditions are met Jews understandable decline. All the more after 1500 years of Christian persecution and anti-Torah doctrine. How could any Jew accept the Nicene Creed for instance? To be accepted as haMoshiach the candidate will have to fulfil the prophecies like:

<li>Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20 <li>Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39 <li>Ezekiel 38:16 <li>Hosea 3:4-3:5 <li>Micah 4 <li>Zephaniah 3:9 <li>Zechariah 14:9 <li>Daniel 10:14

# 13 The traditionally understood biblical teaching is that when our bodies die they rot in the ground until the resurrection of the dead in the Olam Haba (the Messianic world to come). All religious Jews accept this as fact. The idea of people dieing and immediately going to heaven as most Christians believe also has little biblical support and disagrees with certain scriptures that seem clear.

A sizable percentage of Jews believe in the "rolling of souls" (gilul neshamot) doctrines, of which there are two essential ones.

1. That souls (either all souls or some souls, this is debated) are reborn into new bodies for various reasons. This is a widely held view among religious Jews (including me) and the details of how this works are debated.

2. That when Messiah comes the souls of the righteous dead will reanimate their restored bodies and they will "roll" across the lands and back to Israel. This belief is probably seen in the teaching that when Rebbe Y'shua died some of the Jerusalem dead were reanimated and seen walking around (Matthew 27:52).

Jews don't tend to place much emphasis on the afterlife however. What we do here and now is far more important. We place our trust in HaShem about what will happen next.

I'll post my piece on clarifying our beliefs now. It may make this clearer.

Always nice talking with you my friend.

~ Yochanan (John of AllFaith)

@Lewis1122 - Hmmm I would not agree with this statement mainly because it has too many caveats. Let me attempt to clarify my views.

Lewis: ... do you agree Jesus manifested God in the
flesh?...

RY: God can not be "manifested in the flesh" in any sort of literal sense. I agree that Rebbe Y'shua lived and died in full harmony with HaShem and His Will. To that degree one might say that he "manifested" the Will of God as all tzadikim do (as an exemplar). To say he "manifested God in the
flesh" however is biblically problematic and opens the door to "deification," a teaching opposed to Torah. HaShem is One and there is no second nor third.

Lewis: .... Meaning that Jesus did the will of God so he manifested God
outward so the world could see?...

RY: God is not a thing to be manifested. HaShem's holy Presence was with the Rebbe and in his service to God the world could see a true holy person in action. This is empowering to those with eyes to see... but again the wording is problematic.

Lewis: ...If you agree with that the word tells us
we shall be conformed into the image of Christ, that would mean we
shall all be made in the image and likness of God, a spiritual holy
being....

RY: Where I think you are going with this is probably something I could agree with, however we were created in His image already. This means that we are cognizant beings capible of free will, as is He. Once we are in the Olam Haba (the world to come) Rav Paul says we all be changed as we drop the dross of matter.

In Genesis where HaShem dresses the couple in skins, I believe this is referring to our physicality not body shame. It was not that He made them a robe to wear but that their nature was darkened and they became densely physical beings rather that radiant ones. In the Olam Haba this covering will be removed I think. Think of the Transfiguration and how Moshe, Elijah and Y'shua appeared as glorious, glowing beings. That I believe is our true nature. Those who are blessed to enter the Olam Haba will be freed of dross matter and be as they. We will remain terrestrial but our "vibrational levels" for lack of a better term will be heightened by holiness (due to our harmony with the Will of God).

We are already in the image of God, but its as though we are under a fleshy cloak that keeps us earthbound, in a sense. We will however never become fully "as God." He is our Father and He exists in eternality, utterly transcending terrestrial and celestial existence.

The "image of Christ" must be understood in this context. Christ is not Y'shua. Christ (christos) is the anointing of HaShem that covers and overshadows righteous (and sometimes evil) people at times for HaShem's pleasure and purposes. In the Olam Haba we will be the image of Christ in that we will choose to harmonize ourselves with HaShem's anointing. Then, as with Rebbe Y'shua and other tzadikim, we will only act under the anointing of God. "I can of myself do nothing" the rebbe said. "Only what I see the Father do." When we say "Y'shua the Christ" we are saying that this man lived in the full anointing of God. The same will be true of all who enter the Olam Haba. Of such a state Rav Paul says that none can grasp what it will be like: eye hath not seen.... We will never become God nor in any way equal to nor independent of Him. That notion was the pride that led to Lucifer's fall. HaShem is eternal in glory and there will never be anyone beside Him. He alone the Eternal One. Scripture is abundantly clear on this.

Lewis: ...When God said let us make man in his image his likeness he was
talking about the finish work, for the word tells us God sees the end as
if it has already been. (Something like that).

RY: HaShem is independent of and untouched by time. In eteranality He alone exists alone. He created celestial and terrestrial life for reasons of His own. We learn from the prophets that in the end these creations will bring glory to the Creator (Elohyim) and thence to Ain Soph (the Eternal One). How this is we can only theorize.

We were however created in that image at that point in distant time past and without it we would have no independent volition. Being created in His image  is not about the future only. It is past, present and future. It is in the totality of time since our creation. It is through our free will (which we only have because we exist in His image) that we can chose between our dual nature of yetzer tov and yetzer hara (good and evil inclinations). Through these choices human history moves forward towards its ultimate restitution, the return to Gan Eden for those found by HaShem to be worthy: Paradise Lost to Paradise Restored.

Interesting topic of conversation this!

Shalom

@Gabriel333 - Thanks for sharing your thoughts Gabriel.

So... please explain how it is that the following key prophecies have clearly not been fulfilled:

Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
Jeremiah
23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
Ezekiel 38:16
Hosea 3:4-3:5
Micah 4
Zephaniah 3:9
Zechariah 14:9
Daniel 10:14

There are many critical unfulfilled Messianic prophecies. Its good to have faith that he will fulfill them in the future, I share that faith, but thus far they remain unfulfilled. To say: the true Son of God!  He accomplished everything is a problem seeing that he clearly didn't.

The Kingdom is not established. Death and illness persist. Antisemitism continues. So on and so on...

Accurate knowledge will protect us from accepting the Anti-Christ.

Torah and the rest of the Scriptures should be ones foundation. They tells what Messiah will accomplish and the major portion of those remain unfilled.

Shalom

@Gabriel333 - Shalom Gabriel,

I would suggest the same to you. The Bible is clear:

Deuteronomy 32:39  See now that I, I am He, and there is no god with me. I kill, and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is no deliverer out of My hand.

Isaiah 42:8  I am Adonai; that is My name; and My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images.

And Rebbe Y'shua is equally clear:

John 14:28  You have heard how I said to you, I go away and I am coming to you again. If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, I go to the Father, for My Father is greater than I.

John 5:19  Then Jesus answered and said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, The Son can do nothing of Himself but what He sees the Father do. For whatever things He does, these also the Son does likewise.

John 5:30  I can do nothing of My own self. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of the Father who has sent Me.

So many times Rebbe Y'shua affirms his humanity and that HaShem is greater than he. The author of the Hebrews affirm this:

Hebrews 2:11  For both He who sanctifies and they who are sanctified are all of One, for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brothers.

Rebbe Y'shua is our elder brother, not our father. We share a common Father, God.

The realization of Avraham avinu (our father Avraham) was the absolute oneness of God. That realization gave birth to biblical religion. Pagan gods spawn avatars or incarnations, but not the God of the Bible. As you noted above, God is a Spirit. Rebbe Y'shua is a mortal man, clothed in flesh.

Philippians 2:6 is a popular Nicene "proof text."
First, no doctrine can be established on a single verse. Especially when the interpretation of that verse contradicts many other verses that are more clear.
Secondly, what this verse says is debated by scholars.

In my opinion the ASV is correct when it translates: Philippians 2:6  who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

In other words, as Moshaich he dwelt in the celestial realms but never deemed equality with HaShem something to be grasped or attained. This would be the opposite of Lucifer (which is probably the point there). Hence it goes on to say:

Philippians 2:8  and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the stake.

According to the Talmud one of the first things Elohiym created was the "name" of the Messiah. We know that Y'shua says he existed before the time of Avraham (John 8:58) and that Paul says the "Son" was among the first created beings (Colossians 1:15). God was never created and existing in eternity God would not make His existence finite to say "before Avraham I existed." God exists in eternality.

There is therefore nothing in that verse that claims that Rebbe Y'shua was ever equal to God. Such a thought clearly contradicts Torah and the united testimony of all Scripture.

HaShem alone is God and there is NONE that is equal to nor independent of Him.

@Gabriel333 - Not a biblical doctrine.

@Lewis1122 - Hi Lewis,

No these things will end. This is a key evidence that haMoshiach has arrived -- and how we know that Rebbe Y'shua did not fulfill all the prophetic requirements. Biblically, when Messiah comes he will gather all the Jews back to Israel. He will restore the 12 Houses and give their back their portions of the land. He will rule as the King of Israel. The gentiles will come to Jerusalem and seek his counsel and overlordship of their lands. There will be global peace. No hunger, no illness, no death. no war. etc.

In the Olam Haba we will be capible of rebelling but we will choose not to because the Torah will be written on our hearts, as Jeremiah says, and we will realize that HaShem knows best.

Remember when Lucifer tempted Rebbe Y'shua? Both the Adversary and our Rebbe were clear that he could have gone that way. Rebbe Y'shua could have bowed before Lucius as requested and he would have become global despot as promised. But what did the Rebbe reply: Get thee behind me! FOR IT IS WRITTEN... Torah was his strength and in Torah he stood firm. So too can we, even now! But in the Olam Haba all who are granted entry will live as Torah observant tzadikim (righteous people).

You hit it perfectly Lewis. One who truly loves HaShem with his/her full heart, soul and mind will not desire these things. I could pull out a gun and start killing people, but I would never even consider such a thing nor do I have any desire to do it. As we draw closer to HaShem greed, avarice, prejudices, selfishness... these things drift away. In  the Olam Haba we will prove Satan a liar! What he accused in the Book of Job is not true!  The Way of God is in ever way preferable to self service and egotism. Right now we all stumble occasionally, but then Torah will light our Path and we will live as pure sons and daughter of HaShem. A world of Rebbe Y'shuas! A world of Rebbe Nachmans! Each with her/his own uniquenesses. Just imagine the things that HaShem has in store for those who love Him!

@johnofallfaith - The rabbis did not say he was God nor that he was claiming it. As always the context must be read. Let's do that.

John 10:29  My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand.

Note: not out of my hand, but my Fathers.

John 10:30  I and the Father are one!

i.e I operates under the authority of and in harmony with the Will of the Father. We are in complete harmony.

John 10:31  Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
10:32  Y'shua answered them, I have shown you many good works from My Father; for which of these do you stone Me?

Note: FROM my Father not on his own.A son can not be his own father.

John 10:33  The Jews answered Him, saying, We do not stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy, and because you, being a man, make yourself God.

Note: This is the verse you referenced. If it ended here you would have a point, but it doesn't. Keep reading.

John 10:34  Y'shua answered them, Is it not written in your Law,

"I said, You are gods?"

10:35  If He called them gods with whom the Word of God was, and the Scripture cannot be broken,
10:36 

do you say of Him whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world, You blaspheme, because I said, I am the Son of God?

10:37  If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me.

So now it should be clear in context. The rabbis said, in effect, "We are the authorities! Who do you think you are, GOD!"  And he replied, "All who hear the Voice of HaShem and obey it, all who conform to His, are in a sense gods according to Torah because they obey His Will. Here's the text he was quoting in the KJV:

Psalm 82:1  A Psalm of Asaph. God stands in the congregation of the mighty; in the midst of the gods He judges.
82:2  How long will you judge unjustly and lift up the faces of the wicked? Selah.
82:3  Defend the poor and fatherless; do justice to the afflicted and needy.
82:4  Deliver the poor and needy; save them out of the hand of the wicked.
82:5  They neither know nor will understand; they walk on in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
82:6 

I have said, You are gods; and all of you sons of the Most High.

82:7  But you shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
82:8  Arise, O God, judge the earth; for You shall inherit in all nations.

Our Father is God so we are, in this sense, gods when we are in harmony with Him. The Rebbe then adds, in effect, "I'm not God, but I am a son of God! I am an obedient tzadik. If my words and works contradict God's show me where!"

Reading only partial sentences or sections leads to most of the confusion people have with the Bible. 

@Gabriel333 - It will be clear. The real Christ will destroy the Anti-Christand his global government.
This will happen after the rise of the Antichrist. After the abomination of desolation. After the Jews flee to Petra. When he defeats the enemies of Israel in the War of Jerusalem (Har-Megeddon.

The true Messiah will fulfill every prophecy
He will elevate Judaism, rule as the King of the Jews and establish the worship of HaShem according to Torah everywhere

@Gabriel333 - How is this clear? I've written volumes on this subject. I do reject many of the Christian teachings regarding him. The majority of the Messianic prophecies have not yet been fulfilled. That's a plan fact. I believe that when HaMoshiach comes he will be the same neshama

or soul that walked the earth as Rebbe Y'shua.

I don't understand your comment: "Maybe you are a Gentile wanting to be Jewish?" I am Jewish not wanting to be a gentile Paul is referring to people who pretend to be Jewish while seeking to replace them with a different people. Rav John also speaks of these people (Revelation 2:9, 3:9). Paul never condemned the Judaizers. He was critical of those born Jews who claimed to be talmidim of Rebbe Y'shua while not embracing his reforms. Judaizers are Gentiles who seek the Jewish foundations for their beliefs. When Constantine and his heretics outlawed Torah study this is the term they used for those followers of the Way of Rebbe Y'shua who were seeking to maintain his teachings.

No offense to you either, but it seems you have drank the Nicolaitan Kool-aid.

Fortunately HaShem looks at the heart and yours seems to be sincere.

Shalom my friend

~ Yochanan

Hi,
Well, Messiahship from the Christian perspective runs directly into the alleged divinity of Y'shua. They believe his godhood proves his identity as Messiah. Nothing in any of our Scriptures even implies that the Messiah would be an incarnation of God. To justify their beliefs they twist and ignore the contexts in ways that go against the historic interpretations of our sages. The whole idea is utterly anathema from both a Jewish and, as we read it, biblical perspective. For Christians however this idea seem locked.

Most of the first century rabbinim rejected the rebbe for reasons other than his doctrine. There have been many similar reformers who have not been effectively disowned. The difference was that Rebbe Y'shua focused his attention on the average people rather than the respected members of the Temple hierarchy, the priests, the rulers of the people and so on. Indeed he was very critical of them (arguably rightly so) and his criticism was hard for them to accept from a personal, ego perspective. Plus, to accept his teachings and claims they would have to humble themselves before a man with no serious qualifications among the rabbinim, a man who was very direct in his accusations of them, PLUS if they embraced his claims and he was wrong, if he were not who he claimed to be, the Romans would surely view it as a serious insurrection and crush Judea. Untold numbers of Jews might be killed or worse... as eventually happened in 70 CE.

So they looked at the Rebbe and didn't like what they saw. He showed no indication of planning to fulfill the prophecies. Indeed he spoke of peace and cooperation with Rome.... It was a tough call. In the end they made their decision.

Our views regarding Rebbe Y'shua are not shared by almost any Jews (although by a few more than you would probably expect). A major problem is that when the rabbinim consider his claims they can't get past the Christian heresies (no offense intended). They wrongly assume that he taught what Nicene Christians believe -- he did not. A heretic (as he would be if he taught what they do) could clearly not be the Messiah of Israel. From a Jewish perspective these doctrines are utterly anti-Torah and unacceptable. Had he claimed to be God incarnate for instance he certainly could not be haMoshiach and would have been worthy of death under Torah.

We believe that when his teachings are correctly understood they are completely consistent with Torah and traditional Jewish wisdom.

Shalom

@Gabriel333 - Y'shua, his real name, was a great tzadik (a holy person) whose life was completely devoted to HaShem. He was a human being, our elder brother as the Book of Hebrews says. Through him HaShem established the B'rit Chadasha (New Covenant) as the prophets foretold.

I believe that one day HaMoshiach (The Messiah) will come. When that happens we will all know who is.

The Bible and other Jewish Scriptures give a lot of insight into him and, based upon my research, I believe that he ("the firstborn" of HaShem -- Colossians 1:15) took birth as Y'shua ben Yosef (whom you would call Jesus son of Joseph). Rebbe Y'shua (Torah teacher Jesus) did not fulfill the essential messianic prophecies but I believe The Firstborn will again come to the earth as melekh or king of Israel and fulfill the requirements.

Like all tzadikim Rebbe Y'shua was clear:

Matthew 20:28  Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister...

He is not a god to be worshiped. His every action was designed to draw people closer to God, closer to HaShem. It was the Romans who murdered him and it was the Romans who deified him.

That's my view and I convinced it is his as well.

@Gabriel333 - Bummer
Xanga seems to be having issues. I'm enjoying our chats. Do try again.

Shabbat shalom

Shalom,

As I wrote on your page:
I'm not sure why you can't post to my blog anymore [apparently you still can ]. No one else is having that problem to my knowledge.

What the Bible is clear on is that HaShem alone is God, that He is One (Deuteronomy 6:4) and indivisible (Deuteronomy 32:39):

echad

;
that no one can nor has ever seen God (Exodus 33:20, John 1:18, I John
4:12); and that Rebbe Y'shua is His son (Mark 1:1, Luke 1:32, John 6:69,
14:28 etc) and our elder brother (Hebrews 2:11) as he frequently said
(John 5:19). There is no verse in the Bible that says otherwise when
read in context. Monotheism is the core of biblical religion. Most Pagan
religions have incarnating gods and trinities, neither the Bible nor
biblical religion does.

If you'd like to re-post this to the thread where we're discussing this I'll be happy to reply point by point.

Shabbat Shalom,
~ Yochanan
John of AllFaith 

@alterb4ego - No he didn't. And yes I can
According to Moses HaShem is echad (One). He is not a trinity. According to Moses no one has or will ever see God.

So... those who believe the biblical writings of Moses can not accept accept the Christian re-interpretation of Y'shua.

The Y'shua in the Bible was a humble servant of God.

@Gabriel333 - That's a silly calculation coined up by C. S. Lewis that leaves out all sorts of other possibilities.
Rebbe Y'shua was neither a liar, a lunatic, an incarnation of God nor a blasphemer (as he would have to have been had he claimed to be God). He was tzadik, a righteous person and rabbi who taught the common people, was wrongly rejected by our elders and then plagiarized by what John refers to as the Nicolaitan heresy. First the Romans murdered him and then usurped the movement he and his talmidim (students) began. We seek to rediscover his Jewish teachings.

Hi Gabriel,
What I wrote make perfect sense, you just don't agree, which is fine. Like other literature reading the Bible requires one to flow with the context. Sometimes the context is literal, sometimes metaphorical and so on.

John 1:1  In the beginning [archē: general commencement or first rank] was the Word [logos: book, something said or revealed: i.e not the author of the book or said word: i.e Torah (the Five Books five Moses)], and the Word [logos] was with [ēn pros:in agreement with/charged of and attached to] God [theos], and the Word [logos] was [ēn: in agreement, charged of] God [theos].

1:2  The same [haTorah] was in the beginning with [ēn pros:in agreement with/charged of and attached to] God.

1:3  All things were made by him [autos: a very general word that comes from au and refers to a wind: correctly translated as him, her, used in the singular or third person]; and without him [autos: ie this case contextually haTorah] was not any thing made that was made.

1:4  In him [in context haTorah] was life; and the life was the light of men [which Scripture and Jewish tradition frequently asserts, most Christians also agree that "the Bible" is vital as it is the sure revelation of God's truth. This verse affirms that].

1:5  And the light [phōs] shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not [self explanatory: the world rejects the light of Torah].

1:6  There was a man sent from God, whose name was John [the Essene, not the author of this book: Y'shua is not the topic yet. First Torah, later John and after him he will introduce Y'shua. Remember this was written ton introduce people to Y'shua who did not yet know about him].  

1:7  The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light [phōs: in context the light of Torah], that all men through him [again autos: it: through Torah (the Word)] might believe.

1:8  He [ekeinos: "that gender neutral thing": Torah] was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. [This use of ekeinos here affirms my point. The referenced autos above are to this ekeinos or gender neutral "thing," i.e. the logos or Word: haTorah.]

1:9  That was [ēn: that ekeinos or haTorah] the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

1:10  He was [ēn: that ekeinos or haTorah] in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not [this agrees with Proverbs 8:22 etc]

1:11  He came unto his own, and his own received him not [by rejecting the messiah Israel temporarily rejected Wisdom and haTorah].

Then at verse 14 John introduces Rebbe Y'shua and says this wisdom, this logos, was revealed to us through one who was completely Torah observant, Rebbe Y'shua

1:14  And the Word [logos] was made flesh [sarx: meaning to strip something down to its bare flesh: Rebbe Y'shua's reforms bypassed the then developing Oral Traditions of the Talmud and sought to restore the bare flesh of essentials of Torah observance: he taugh us how anyone can be Torah observant], and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory [doxa: not "the glory of God"; this word means something that is made apparent so as to be seen by anyone who looks], the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, [a direct statement that Y'shua is not God. He made apparent the Will of the Father [i.e. how to serve the Father through proper Torah observance]) full of grace [charis: through humble submission to God's influence] and truth [alētheia: in context this can only mean the truth of Torah which his life showed us how to observance as our example].

To then seek to deify this humble Torah observant rabbi [Matthew 5:18] in direct opposition to Torah [Deuteronomy 6:4] is a most grievance offense both to him and to HaShem. We know of one being who sought to deify himself and it did not go well for him (Isaiah 14:13).

Fortunately for us all the One True God is merciful. I do not just you for your beliefs, but as for me and my household, we will serve HaShem (Joshua 24:15).   

@Dan - Hi Dan,

Sorry for the confusion. I believe (arguably wrongly) that "simple answers are for simple minds" (no offense intended to ANYONE). I usually try and explain how I come to the conclusions I do, not simply claim to be correct without offering evidence. Nonetheless allow me to answer your questions succinctly.

1. Do you believe Jesus was sent to earth to die for our sins?

No. I believe the Bible teaches that he was "sent to earth" to offer the Kingdom to the Jews (and thence to the world entire) as foretold. HaShem alone grants pardon to whom He chooses without the need of intermediaries as taught by the Christian religion.

2. Do
you believe he was more than a mere imperfect man sent to teach, but a
perfect man without sin worthy of sacrificing himself for all mankind?

I can not answer yes OR no to this because I do not accept the two premises of the question as biblical. A: The Catholic created dogma of Original Sin (created by Bishop Augustine) is not biblical. B: The Catholic created dogma of the Atonement is not biblical. I believe that Y'shua was a true tzadik, a righteous person whose entire life was lived in submission to HaShem.

3. I
understand we are all sons of God. However, do you believe Jesus was
the first of Gods creations and that all other creation was done through
Jesus as his only begotten son?

In essence yes. I believe he was among the first created "things." I believe that when the time was right the "Only Begotten Son" took birth as Y'shua (as an ibbur neshamot or intentionally placed soul for a purpose). I suspect we differ on precisely what this means however. According to Torah God alone created the heavens and the earth and so that's what I believe.

4. Do you believe he is returning to usher in the thousand years?

Absolutely. I believe he will return to earth, restore the 12 Houses and lead 144,000 Israelites and a Great Multitude of non-Israelites to victory against the then existing global government (which may currently be forming); he will finish fulfilling the prophecies, establish his throne in Jerusalem and rule the planet from the Holy Temple for 1000 years as the prophets foretell. Following that, the Way of Gog and Magog will take place and our King (whom I believe will be Melekh Y'shua) will lead the planet into a new age beyond anything we can currently conceive.

I hope this clarifies my perspective on these important questions. I invite your response.

~ Yochanan

@Gabriel333 - Shalom,
If that was the post you were talking about that disappeared I may know what happened. One way sites like Multiply auto- identify spammers is by long strings of text without paragraphs. Many of the worm-like programs are identified that way. To avoid this its good to make more paragraphs.

As for our conversation here, an effective way for you to share the verses you wish to discuss might be as follows:

John 1:1-3 What is the Word that became flesh?
John 3:16 What does it mean that Jesus God's "Only begotten Son"
and so on.

This will be easier to respond to.

Have a great week.

@Gabriel333 - Hi
You: ... "The Baptist's testimony... that the one who is to come after him "WAS BEFORE ME" Is he talking about a book? No!...

JoA: We know that John and Y'shua were both fetuses when they first met. Later, Y'shua was clear that he existed even before Avraham so we don't have a disagreement here.

You: ....(A book doesn't wear sandals.)..

JoA: As I said above, we are in agreement that John is talking about Y'shua the man here. However, in this context Torah does wear "sandals" because the statement is that John was not worthy to even serve such a holy tzadik as Y'shua (which is how any true tzadik views him/herself when in the presence of a tzadik). How much less worthy was he (not to mention us!) to approach Torah! This is reflected in our ancient traditions of how the Torah scroll is carefully removed from the ark in Jewish synagogues the world over and read.

You: ...The baptist stated regarding Jesus
"This is he, of whom I said: After me there cometh a man, who is
preferred before me: because HE WAS BEFORE ME"...

JoA: Everyone who was over 30 or so "came before" John if you takle this literally. In context it seems clear that he means in holiness, that Y'shua is his better. This in no way implies divinity for Y'shua.

You: 14 And the Word was made flesh, and
dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only
begotten of the Father,") ....John had a glimpse of that glory at the Transfiguration....

JoA: They also saw Moshe and Elijah transfigured with Y'shua. Were they gods too?
That experience is clarified by Rav Paul at I Corinthians 15 when he discusses our glorious future, after this 'corruption puts on incorruption' etc. In the Olam Haba (i.e. the Messianic Kingdom and beyond) we will all be like Y'shua, Moshe and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration. Of this John himself tells us:

I John 3:2  Beloved,

now are we the sons of God

, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear,

we shall be like him

; for we shall see him as he is.

IF Y'shua were God this verse would be saying that we too will become God! A truly blasphemous notion.

You: ...Joh 17:24  Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world...

JoA: We have no disagreements that as the "only begotten son" (Colossians 1:15) Rebbe Y'shua existed prior to his birth through Mary. Read this verse carefully however:

"Father" -- One can not be ones own father.
"I will" -- He requests of the Father. One does not request of oneself.
"whom thou hast given me" -- Again who would say this of something of they had? No one give anything to God. Its all His.
"that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me" -- ALL glory is God's alone. He chooses to bestow His blessings (glory) on those He chooses.
"for thou lovedst me" -- This doesn't say "For I loved myself... it say YOU (HaShem) loved me.

Rebbe Y'shua was not a schizophrenic. He was not talking to himself. He was clearly talking to his Father (and to our Father).

Shalom

@Gabriel333 - Shalom again my friend,

Gab: "You've missed the point John.....The
apostle John was speaking about Jesus...not a book we know this because
he tells us of the Baptist's testimony concerning Jesus..he hasn't
changed the discussion from a book to Jesus.

JoA: I believe I both got the point and responded to it. John 1 has to be read as it unfolds. The primary thing is Torah and so Rav John begins there. The preeminence of Torah. He then discusses how Torah is revealed to humanity and how through it we can attain harmony with God. He then explains that John the Immerser came and touches on what he did in service to Torah. The he goes on to introduce Rebbe Y'shua and what he did in service to Torah. Through Torah we can know God.

Gab: Only God can take away our sins.Rev
19 " And he was clothed with a garment sprinkled with blood; and his
name is called, THE WORD OF GOD." >>>>>>>>>
Jesus! 

JoA: Correct. Only God can take away sins. And historically He has brought various teachers and prophets to lead His people. Rebbe Y'shua is one of these people. One reason Christians generally don't like using his real name (i.e. Y'shua) is because that name means: Salvation is of Yah." In other words, the Rebbe's very name denies the belief in the` atonement as taught by the Church.

Torah is clear: Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Not three.

Gab: ...I agree that Sacred Scripture, including the New Testament is inspired by God and should be held with great reverence....

JoA: That's good. Understand too Torah is the heart of the Bible and has precedence over the rest. Anything that contradicts Torah is false. The believe that a human being was or is God contradicts the very heart of Torah.

Gab: ...Not so John... Jesus gave us a New
Covenant in His Blood. There was no way for man to keep up with the
payment owed to God in the Old Testament, so God himself wiped off the
debt, and established a new contract with different terms, and Jesus
specifies what laws we are to follow and which ones have changed....

JoA: Not so. The B'rit Chadashah was foretold by Jeremiah:

Jeremiah 31:31  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

That Covenant is made with the House of Judah and it must be in complete harmony with Torah. It is not a new covenant in contradiction with that revealed to Moshe, it is a clarification and a returning to the original Covenant. Christians like to say the Law can not be kept. This is not the case. In every generation thousands of devout Jews keep the Torah. Torah observance requires the embrace of the 613 Mitzvot or laws. To say these can not be kept is to call God a liar because HE said:

Deuteronomy 30:10  If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
30:11  For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
30:12  It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
30:13  Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
30:14  But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Torah is doable

Gotta run, more later.
Shalom

@Gabriel333 - That one is not organized. Perhaps because Xanga jumbled them, but the post I think you are talking about is a run on sentence (again not trying to be rude). If younwish to present the verses more succinctly there is nothing I will not address.

Peace, Love and Light

And in context what does this teach us?

Gab: ...Jesus says in Luke 5-39 "No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better..."

JoA: The Rebbe is addressing the rote/mechanical observances of the ruling rabbis and says that one needs better wine. When wine becomes stale one needs to return to vineyard (in this case to Torah). This new wine is not a different drink, it is wine. Wine that flows from Torah. Rebbe Y'shua, like Hillel before him and so many other great rabbis before and since urged the Jews to renew the wine, not to begin drinking the vodka or foreigners.

Gab: ...The Son of God is the one to whom all
the Old Testament Prophets, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, and Isaiah pointed
to. Now we are no longer under a schoolmaster...the Torah. ...

JoA: The context of such verses must be understood. Rebbe Y'shua taught:

Matthew 5:18 Yes indeed!
I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud
or a stroke will pass from the Torah -- not until everything that must
happen has happened.

Rav Paul is referring to the fact that children hear and obey without question. they lack critical thinking. Once they become spiritual adult they begin to reason, to think, and to seek out the reason for the rules etc. Many of the rabbis, then and now, mechanically observe Torah but they do so with emunah, active faith. Paul is saying that that is not enough. He is in complete agreement with both Rebbe Y'shua and Torah in this. This is same thing he is addressing in Galatians. There was conflict among the Believers. Some of the Jewish believers were wanting to practice the "letter of the Law" form of Judaism of the rabbis. Rav Paul says they are foolish in this. Extreme literalism sometimes results in spiritual slavery as we see today among some of the Ultra-Orthodox Jews. Torah is supposed to free us, not to enslave us. This was a critical teaching of many rabbis including Y'shua.

I've already addressed most of these other points I think.

Judaism and Christianity are simply, fundamentally, different religions. I do not judge you for your beliefs. They are between you and God and He is very merciful. We choose to worship God as taught by the sages of Israel, including Rebbe Y'shua and his students. You should worship God in the way He leads you.

The Bible is clear but your Roman-born traditions prevent you from seeing the Light of God it reveals. Keep seeking. Our prayers are with you.

~ Yochanan

Hi Gabriel,

Gab: You posted..." The
essential Messianic prophecies remain unfulfilled, hence the Messiah has
not yet come. The Jewish sages past and present are correct." 

Jesus
came to fulfill the prophecies concerning Himself and this He did. The
prophecies concerning other events will take place in God's time. This
still is no proof that Jesus was not the promised Messiah.

JoA: He did not fulfill the most important of the prophecies including:

<li>Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20 <li>Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39 <li>Ezekiel 38:16 <li>Hosea 3:4-3:5 <li>Micah 4 <li>Zephaniah 3:9 <li>Zechariah 14:9 <li>Daniel 10:14

To be accepted as Messiah these and other prophecies must be fulfilled, he must reign as King of Israel, bring about world peace, unite the planet in the worship of HaShem. These things have not yet happened.

The proof of Messiah is that he will do these things. That is solid evidence since Y'shua did not meet the most important of the prophetic requirements. Nonetheless, I also believe that he WILL BE the Messiah. This is an act of faith however, not of established fact. By faith I may refer to him as Y'shua HaMoshiach but thus far he is not in reality.

One can not establish the Messiah based on a negative. It is not up to Jews to prove he is not our Messiah, its up to his followers to prove he is.

Gab: You posted..."The essential Christian dogmas contradict Torah and hence can not be true."  

It's your interpretations that contradict Christian doctrine John  The deification of a man violates the central tenet of Torah (the Shema: Deuteronomy 6:4).  No it doesn't because there is only One God.   God
is beyond all comprehension, and you and I and every one else, will
never ever understand the nature of God - otherwise we would be God!
The Trinity, therefore is one of the most difficult realities to
comprehend. God is one Being...the one and only divine Being. This
divine Being exists as three Persons...Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 

JoA: All of us understand according to our interpretations. Biblical doctrine is far older than Christian doctrine. Where Christian doctrine contradicts biblical doctrine one must choose sides (Joshua 24:15).

Torah describes the ONE God as echad. The word echad is absolute unless it is modified, which it is not here. For instance, one bunch of grapes might be many grapes in one group but "echad grape" is a single grape. The Shema could not be more clear: Hear Israel, Adonai is God, Adonai is echad. There is no possibility of echad Adonai being two or three beings in one. Echad would have to be modified and it is not. Likewise, over and over again HaShem declares that He Alone if God, that there is none with Him etc. Over and over again Y'shua defers to "the father" and says he is but a servant of God. Y'shua is a created being and our brother according to the Bible. God is neither.

Again, one can not establish doctrine based on a negative. You will need to show in Torah or in the New Testament where Rebbe Y'shua claimed to be God, where the prophets foretold an incarnation of God, where Y'shua's followers claimed he was God or where God is presented as anything but echad from Genesis to Revelation and you can not do any of this in the context of the verses.

Biblical religion began with Avram's revelation that Ba'al worship (i.e. the belief that a single Divinity manifests in diverse forms as Ba'als or "masters") is wrong and that the true God is utterly echad. The Christian dogma is the continuation of this Ba'al heresy that is advocated by most non-Jewish religions. The God of the Bible is echad.

Gab: No you're wrong John. The first
Christians worshipped on the "Lord's day" well before Constantine. But
we do owe him many thanks for allowing those Christians to celebrate
that day...In other words John, he only gave permission for them to do
exactly what they had been doing for 300 years. 

JoA: Show an example from the Bible of the disciples honoring Sunday or negating Shabbat observance. There are several examples of their observing Shabbat. As the Nicolaitan heresies spread some of their followers began observing the sun god's holy day to appease Rome, but not before Constantine was that day declared the replacement of Shabbat.

Gab:  "And on the first day of the week,
when we were assembled to break bread, Paul discoursed with them, being
to depart on the morrow: and he continued his speech until midnight.
Acts 20-7

JoA: This is a meal, not a religious observance of the holy day.

Gab:  "On the first day of the week let
every one of you put apart with himself, laying up what it shall well
please him; that when I come, the collections be not then to be made." 1
Cor 16-2

JoA: Jews are not allowed to handle money on Shabbat. Shabbat was over and they took up donations etc. This is not observance of Sunday as a holy day.

Gab: "I was in the spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet," Rev 1-10

JoA: He was in the spirit on Shabbat, the Lord's day.

Gab:  "Let no man therefore judge you in
meat or in drink, or in respect of a festival day, or of the new moon,
or of the sabbaths, 17 Which are a shadow of things to come, but the
body is of Christ. "Col 2-16  Now go through the New
Testament and you see where Jesus mentions the Commandments...Every one
restated, except one...The Sabbath!

JoA: Paul is discussing the contentions with the Gentile converts and seeks to make the peace. He continued to observe Shabbat:

Joh_19:31  The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
Act_1:12  Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
Act_13:14  But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
Act_13:27  For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
Act_13:42  And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Act_13:44  And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
Act_15:21  For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Act_16:13  And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
Act_17:2  And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Act_18:4  And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
Col_2:16  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Torah is abundantly clear that Shabbat is THE eternal holy day for His people:

Genesis 2:2  And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
2:3  And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Exodus 12:15  Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel. 

etc.

Gab: Circumcision had been abolished and
so had the observance of the Saturday Sabbath. These were all "shadows"
as Paul tells us ...now we have a new Day...The Lord's Day!  Here
are some ancient writings from the disciples of the disciples of the
Lord that show us the First day of the week, or the eighth day was now
the day we were to meet and worship 

JoA: If you wish to believe this more power to you. I believe the Bible. That's really what this comes down to. You choose to follow a religion that was created by the people who murdered Y'shua on the stake. I choose to follow the religion established by Avraham, Moshe, the prophets, Rebbe Y'shua and his talmidim. There are a great many sincere Christians who believe as you do. As for me my household, we will follow HaShem.

The writings of the gentiles who established the new religion are interesting but we know what they believed. And its wasn't Torah.

Gab: You have not presented any evidence
whatsoever John but I have given you much to consider...Its up to you.
Reject Him again or finally accept Him.

JoA: I have offered you a LOT evidence and you have responded to almost none of it with Scripture.

As for me and my household we will serve HaShem as taught by Moshe, Rebbe Y'shua and our other sages. You will do as you see best. My best wishes to you.

~ Yochanan